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I know this topic has beaten to death but honestly I am still confused. I understand that the terminologies, swiss made, swiss movement, etc. don't necessarily match the definition of the words themselves....confuse ya, sorry.

Last night during the SNBC Invicta presentation Eyal used the phrase "This is completely Swiss made" when discussing a quartz RD. My initial understanding (considering the words used) would be that every component within the timepiece is of Swiss origin (Made in Switzerland) or that every aspect of the construction is made by the Swiss in Switzerland?? Not sure, that's why I'm asking. My thought is that if neither of the definitions are correct how can the statement be made?

Can someone provide some clarification?

CJ
 

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Well, according to my understanding ofthe Swiss Regulations Section 1a OSM, a watch is considered to be "Swiss Made"if:,


[*]its movement is Swiss; meaning Swiss parts and Swiss assembled.
[*]its movement is cased up in Switzerland;
[*]and the manufacturer carries out the final inspection in Switzerland.
Anything else on the watch other than the words "Swiss Made" or "Swiss" is virtually meaningless and is only a marketing ploy.

The watch is not stamped "Completely Swiss Made" which is what Eyal and other Invicta representatives use in many oftheir descriptions. They could be pointing out that the other components of the watch such as the case, the crystal, andthe band or bracelet are also manufactured by Swiss factories. This would be a good thing if that is what they mean.


Swiss Movement and or Swiss Mvmt. and or Swiss Parts means just Swiss parts, could be assembled in China, Japan, Mexico, Canada, America, Europe, etc. from Swiss and other parts from around the World.
 

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Fair enough TR, I appreciate the clarification...but..and a big but, what if the term completely Swiss made is used in describing the watch but the additional components are say, Chinese? Would this or could this be seen as a glaring misrepresentation?

CJ


Tera-Ram wrote:
Well, according to my understanding ofthe Swiss Regulations Section 1a OSM, a watch is considered to be "Swiss Made"if:,
[*]
its movement is Swiss;
[*]
its movement is cased up in Switzerland;
[*]
and the manufacturer carries out the final inspection in Switzerland..
Anything else on the watch other than the words "Swiss Made" or "Swiss" is virtually meaningless and is only a marketing ploy.

The watch is not stamped "Completely Swiss Made" which is what Eyal and other Invicta representatives use in many oftheir descriptions. They could be pointing out that the other components of the watch such as the case, the crystal, andthe band or bracelet are also manufactured by Swiss factories. This would be a good thing if that is what they mean.
 

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You bet your ass it would be! And if it is being conducted on purpose, may very well be illegal, governed by the ITC,the FBI and the USPS. It would be FRAUD plain and simple and anyone knowingly involved in the complicity of such a fraud would be just that, an accomplice.

It would be like if I listed one ofmy items on ebay as "Solid 18K Yellow Gold" and it was only "18KYGIP". If I knowingly listed this like this I am guilty of fraud. If I am sold this by a supplier and the supplier states it is "Solid Gold" and I list it as such, I am acting in "Good Faith" of my supplier and only guilty of being duped by the supplier as well.
 

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Thanks TR, that's kinda what I thought. So, just my uniformed opinion here, are we to believe that each and every time the term "completely Swiss made" is used there isn't a single solitary part that is "non-Swiss"?? Personally I find that a little difficult to believe.

CJ

Tera-Ram wrote:
You bet your ass it would be! And if it is being conducted on purpose, may very well be illegal, governed by the ITC,the FBI and the USPS. It would be FRAUD plain and simple and anyone knowingly involved in the complicity of such a fraud would be just that, an accomplice.

It would be like if I listed one ofmy items on ebay as "Solid 18K Yellow Gold" and it was only "18KYGIP". If I knowingly listed this like this I am guilty of fraud. If I am sold this by a supplier and the supplier states it is "Solid Gold" and I list it as such, I am acting in "Good Faith" of my supplier and only guilty of being duped by the supplier as well.
 

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Trying not to watch the Shop and this is one of the reasons. Not that I don't like some of the watches I do but starting to think they will say anything to sell a watch. Not digging it!
 

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I am pretty sure that there is no fraud going on here. ShopNBC is a publicly traded company and I am willing to bet a lot of money that nothing makes it on air more then once without a legal department scrutinizing every word. That much is pretty much fact for all public companies. They just can't risk the exposure.

So there has to be some truth in the claims made by ALL of the companies/brand (watches or other) shown on ShopNBC. That statement has been used so many times that I am sure they feel comfortable saying it and that it falls within their legal guidelines and nothing potentially harmful is being said.

Now that being all said above, that does not mean that I understand what is exactly meant. I spent the last 30 minutes reading posts and websites about this ALL OVER THE INTERNET. In my opinion this confusion has nothing to do with SHOPNBC and I think that is an important point. It seems to be an "industry wide" confusion. Let's forget them for a second and try to figure out what exactly is being put on the watches and why. Because pretty much EVERY SITE I VISITED has a DIFFERENT understandings of what all the different terms mean.

Swiss Made
Made in Switzerland
Swiss Movement
Swiss Movt.
etc etc etc etc etc

ALL seem to have different meanings and those meanings can be then stretched to mean different things. From my reading all over the net I found that ALL brands seem to use a wide variety of these terms for 2 obvious reasons.
1) First is telling how the watch has been manufactured
2) Second, the other reason is to assist in selling of the watch based on the prestige of the "Swiss branding" being on the watch in some manner.
(Many brands use the branding to accomplish both reasons obviously)
 

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Seattle wrote:
Thanks TR, that's kinda what I thought. So, just my uniformed opinion here, are we to believe that each and every time the term "completely Swiss made" is used there isn't a single solitary part that is "non-Swiss"?? Personally I find that a little difficult to believe.

CJ

Tera-Ram wrote:
You bet your ass it would be! And if it is being conducted on purpose, may very well be illegal, governed by the ITC,the FBI and the USPS. It would be FRAUD plain and simple and anyone knowingly involved in the complicity of such a fraud would be just that, an accomplice.

It would be like if I listed one ofmy items on ebay as "Solid 18K Yellow Gold" and it was only "18KYGIP". If I knowingly listed this like this I am guilty of fraud. If I am sold this by a supplier and the supplier states it is "Solid Gold" and I list it as such, I am acting in "Good Faith" of my supplier and only guilty of being duped by the supplier as well.
"Completely Swiss Made" is certainly not out of the realm of possibilities, and I hope we are not being misled for the sake of a few more sales.

There are most definitely International Laws that protect consumers from this type of fraud, if this is what is occurring, I do not know. I have not disassembled any of my "Swiss Made" watches to verify one way or the other, so I am being trusting in the supplier and the shipper.

The one that was reported to allegedly have "Swiss Made" on the dial but then the movement was stamped "China Movement" did not come from ShopNBC and was used and defective, this wasstated by the buyer of that piece. ALSO, we have no verifiable proof or evidence that it actually is exactly what that buyer proclaims about it.

It would be advisable that someone with perhaps a defective "Swiss Made" unit from the source in question and from the supplier in question video document the disassembly and inspection of said unit to verify at least if the internal mechanisms are indeed all stamped "Swiss" or at least not stamped anything else.

If this proves the prior reported incident, then, have you ever heard of "Class Action Suit"?
 

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Besides companies who follow A.O.S.C. guidelines, most watches are NOT 100% Swiss Made. Even following A.O.S.C. guidelines, there is exception for parts to come from the E.U.

Bedat & Co. are one of those brands.

This was taken directly from their home page . . . http://www.bedat.com/swiss-a.o.s.c.html

BEDAT & Co A.O.S.C.® CERTIFICATE
(Appellation d’Origine Suisse Certifiée – Swiss Certified Label of Origin)

To ensure the excellence of its Swiss components and skills, BEDAT & Co applies a strict charter to each stage in the conception and production of its watches: the A.O.S.C® (Appellation d’Origine Suisse Certifiée – Swiss Certified Label of Origin).

Swiss watchmaking expertise, acknowledged the world over, serves to guarantee quality in terms of technical aspects such as reliability, accuracy and shock-resistance; as well as aesthetic appeal by means of original designs.
This traditional craftsmanship is now adapted to incorporate new technologies.

To earn this certification, each BEDAT & Co watch must meet the following criteria:
  • The conception and development of our watches is undertaken in Switzerland.

    All of our movement parts are machined and finished exclusively in Switzerland.

    Our cases are made exclusively in Switzerland.

    The components of our watches that cannot be made in Switzerland stem exclusively from the European Community.

    The watches carry the “8” maker’s mark.

    The straps are hand-sewn.

    The noble materials used in making our watches respect international conventions and are ethically “sound”.

    The watches are assembled and tested in Switzerland.
This is the commitment made by BEDAT & Co regarding the quality of the products.


____________
 

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read some of the posts I made above. I think we are way way way far away from any legal action being done. all of these watch makers use those terms fast and loose and there seems to be a lot of leeway in what and how they can use the terms and not be doing anything wrong. this discussion is not a new one as you will see from the articles I posted above. This "confusion" and stretching of the definition has been going on for many many years with almost all brands below the established "luxury" brands.
 

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TVDinner wrote:
read some of the posts I made above. I think we are way way way far away from any legal action being done. all of these watch makers use those terms fast and loose and there seems to be a lot of leeway in what and how they can use the terms and not be doing anything wrong. this discussion is not a new one as you will see from the articles I posted above. This "confusion" and stretching of the definition has been going on for many many years with almost all brands below the established "luxury" brands.
I would have to say this is true otherwise, in today's environment of law suits over even a hang nail, there would already be many brought against manufactures over these concerns.

As my post above prove, I have fallen right into that mentality of legal action for anything, even though in my life I have only ever brought one suite against a internet mail order company for under $200.00

I have just been slapped back into reality and will watch my conclusions before I suggest we all jump to them.
 

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Another good point TR..........!!;)

Tera-Ram wrote:
TVDinner wrote:
read some of the posts I made above. I think we are way way way far away from any legal action being done. all of these watch makers use those terms fast and loose and there seems to be a lot of leeway in what and how they can use the terms and not be doing anything wrong. this discussion is not a new one as you will see from the articles I posted above. This "confusion" and stretching of the definition has been going on for many many years with almost all brands below the established "luxury" brands.
I would have to say this is true otherwise, in today's environment of law suits over even a hang nail, there would already be many brought against manufactures over these concerns.
 

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wow, look at all i missed.......lol.......This has been discussed before elsewhere, and Jim Skeltons answer was that English is a 4th language for Eyal...........so sometimes he doesnt always say the right words.......(ill leave my feelings about that out )......

anyways......its real simple.......obviously, the watch has to be under the guidlines to say swiss made on the dial, otherwise they would have been in trouble for it long ago..........Are Invictas or most other watches COMPLETLY swiss made.......no, but they are swiss made within the regulations and thats what Eyal is playing on when he says that.........its not a lie really, its just a way to put a spin on things...............and obvioulsy, if there were something illegal about it, he would have been caught by now.........its just another salesman tactic........
 

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tattoo chef wrote:
wow, look at all i missed.......lol.......



Yea, well, maybe next time you'll get you lazy ass out of bed, sleeping all day like you're some old man or something! Geezee!
 

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Well there are a lot of companies at fault for this crime isnt there! You guys find it to be a sales tactic, when in all reality the term "Swiss Made" is reality!
 

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RipitRon wrote:
Well there are a lot of companies at fault for this crime isnt there! You guys find it to be a sales tactic, when in all reality the term "Swiss Made" is reality!
Ron, the issue here was not the term swiss made...........as if you read my post above yours, the question here was how they stress the fact COMPLETLY swiss made over and over , and the fact is, the watches are not COMPLETLEY swiss made, as other components from other countries are used to build and assemble the watch..........like i said, they are obviously within the guidlines to put swiss made on the dial so its a moot point really.................the only thing they were really discussing is how he claims it tobe COMPLETLY or 100% swiss made..............which, yes, is a selling tactic......
 

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i watched a couple of minutes here & there of the Invicta shows and by now since i'm so used to hearing all of these
terms - i just focus it out and look at the watches

like when JS starts raising his voice and saying you know you want it etc - i know its tactics - so it really doesnt affect my buying - pretty much all of the vendors claim the same things in the most part and you really wont ever know whats what
 

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This is what I am going to have to do just so I can enjoy looking at the watches........just have bad feelings right now about all the salesmanship but it is their job.


WATCHURSELF wrote:
i watched a couple of minutes here & there of the Invicta shows and by now since i'm so used to hearing all of these
terms - i just focus it out and look at the watches

like when JS starts raising his voice and saying you know you want it etc - i know its tactics - so it really doesnt affect my buying - pretty much all of the vendors claim the same things in the most part and you really wont ever know whats what
 

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Guys I think the better topic here IS NOT Shopnbc or Invicta.

It is how MANY watch companies loosely use SWISS THIS or SWISS THAT on their dials. This applies to many many many watch brands. So the real issue is how they apply these rules and posting these terms on their watches.

From my previous post above -

http://watchinghorology.com/2006/05/faq-3-what-does-swiss-made-mean.html

read last line - that gives ALL watch brands a lot of wiggle room.


More
http://www.fhs.ch/en/swissm.php

http://www.allbusiness.com/services/museums-art-galleries-botanical-zoological/4359153-1.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Made - scroll down after page loads - info is lower
 
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