imported post
OK OK No need to rub it in!!!
Old Eyes i guess!!! LOL
OK OK No need to rub it in!!!
Old Eyes i guess!!! LOL
12/6 Seiko 45mm Pepsi Dial/Bezel Automatic Diver's Stainless Steel - $129
2
imported post
Good deal on this one -
http://www.ewatches.com/detail.asp?bo_products_variance_id=62148
$129
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Brand Seiko
Style SKX009K2
Case Stainless steel
Dial Color Blue
Bracelet Stainless steel
Clasp Type Deployment
Calendar Date and day display at 3:00
Movement Japan automatic
Crystal Hardlex
Water Resistant 200 meters
Case Diameter 45 mm
Case Thickness 13 mm
Bracelet Width 22 mm
Bracelet Length 8.5 inches
Series Diver's
Style Casual
Size Men's
Sweep Second Hand Silver
Luminous Hands and hour markers
Bezel Function Blue and red unidirectional elapsed time
Good deal on this one -
http://www.ewatches.com/detail.asp?bo_products_variance_id=62148
$129
Brand Seiko
Style SKX009K2
Case Stainless steel
Dial Color Blue
Bracelet Stainless steel
Clasp Type Deployment
Calendar Date and day display at 3:00
Movement Japan automatic
Crystal Hardlex
Water Resistant 200 meters
Case Diameter 45 mm
Case Thickness 13 mm
Bracelet Width 22 mm
Bracelet Length 8.5 inches
Series Diver's
Style Casual
Size Men's
Sweep Second Hand Silver
Luminous Hands and hour markers
Bezel Function Blue and red unidirectional elapsed time
21 - 33 of 33 Posts
32
imported post
argabright wrote:
I found some info that was helpful . . .
http://www.mkiiwatches.com/WSWrapper.jsp?mypage=faq.html#anchor9
Which is better the Seiko 7s26 or ETA 2824?
Both offer their strengths and have their trade-offs. The ETA 2824 is the movement of choice among many watch manufacturers because of the accuracy it can achieve and the readily available supply of parts. Among watch collectors the 2824 is valued for its hack setting feature and manual winding capability. The Seiko 7s26 is widely regarded for its durability and robustness.
However, these strengths also hold the trade-offs of these movements. The ETA 2824 generally requires more servicing and is less robust than the Seiko 7s26 movement. The Seiko 7s26’s robustness and resistance to neglect is achieved by its lack of certain conveniences such as manual winding capability, hack setting feature, and tighter tolerances for accuracy.
AND . . .
http://www.thepurists.com/watch/features/8ohms/7s26/
Under the Dial
While there is often much disdain amongst watch enthusiasts for plastic components in mechanical wristwatches, I propose that there are instances where it is acceptable and possibly even preferable. One particular area in which plastic is a perfectly logical solution is the calendar mechanism. These are parts that rotate at very slow speeds (or sometimes intermittently) and with very little torque for the majority of their rotation. This combination of features makes them controversial with regards to lubrication. While lubricating them significantly will increase the drag on the movement and possibly ultimately stop the watch, leaving them sparsely lubricated or dry will ultimately result in wear. Plastic is an ideal solution for these components because it is light and self-lubricating. I won't pretend that Seiko's primary concern here is not one of economics, but it is combined with intelligent engineering as well.
The plastic parts in question are the quickset wheels, the intermediate calendar wheel and the calendar advance wheel
argabright wrote:
Thanks . . .
I found some info that was helpful . . .
http://www.mkiiwatches.com/WSWrapper.jsp?mypage=faq.html#anchor9
Which is better the Seiko 7s26 or ETA 2824?
Both offer their strengths and have their trade-offs. The ETA 2824 is the movement of choice among many watch manufacturers because of the accuracy it can achieve and the readily available supply of parts. Among watch collectors the 2824 is valued for its hack setting feature and manual winding capability. The Seiko 7s26 is widely regarded for its durability and robustness.
However, these strengths also hold the trade-offs of these movements. The ETA 2824 generally requires more servicing and is less robust than the Seiko 7s26 movement. The Seiko 7s26’s robustness and resistance to neglect is achieved by its lack of certain conveniences such as manual winding capability, hack setting feature, and tighter tolerances for accuracy.
AND . . .
http://www.thepurists.com/watch/features/8ohms/7s26/
Under the Dial
While there is often much disdain amongst watch enthusiasts for plastic components in mechanical wristwatches, I propose that there are instances where it is acceptable and possibly even preferable. One particular area in which plastic is a perfectly logical solution is the calendar mechanism. These are parts that rotate at very slow speeds (or sometimes intermittently) and with very little torque for the majority of their rotation. This combination of features makes them controversial with regards to lubrication. While lubricating them significantly will increase the drag on the movement and possibly ultimately stop the watch, leaving them sparsely lubricated or dry will ultimately result in wear. Plastic is an ideal solution for these components because it is light and self-lubricating. I won't pretend that Seiko's primary concern here is not one of economics, but it is combined with intelligent engineering as well.
The plastic parts in question are the quickset wheels, the intermediate calendar wheel and the calendar advance wheel
. The calendar advance wheel [8] has two plastic fingers to advance the date and day disks that will easily slip out of the way if the quickset is activated while the calendar is advancing. The calendar mechanism is secured under a very thin but nicely polished metal plate that is held in place with three standard screws and one Phillips head [7]. The presence of this one tiny Phillips screw in the movement is something of a mystery and along with the molded plastic and thin metal plates lends the bottom plate the appearance of a very well made calculator.
The first wheel in the quickset mechanism [9] is permanently attached to the underside of the calendar plate. It's only after removing this thin plate that the date ring can be removed and, subsequently, the spacer ring. Such close integration of the spacer ring with the rest of the movement is unique in my experience and sharply contrasts with the usual method of securing the spacer ring to the case. This novel arrangement conceivably contributes to the shock resistance by separating the movement and ring, as one unit, from the case.
After removing the calendar plate we can also observe the oddly shaped teeth of the clutch and quickset pinion [10], all the more visible because of the utter lack of keyless works on the bottom plate. Because there is no winding pinion (no manual winding capability), in its place is a quickset pinion. The square teeth of this pinion mesh with identical teeth on the clutch when the stem is in the second position and allow the quickset pinion to turn in either direction: clockwise to advance the date and counterclockwise to advance the day indicator. The second quickset intermediate wheel (the white plastic wheel with traditional teeth) then slides into engagement with either the date ring or the third intermediate wheel (with the wolf teeth) which advances the day disk. This is a very functional and robust quickset and calendar mechanism and, being largely made of plastic components, requires no lubrication. Another thin plate holds the intermediate calendar wheel, c! alendar advance wheel and hour wheel in place and after removing them we can contemplate the top plate of the movement.
The Automatic System
One of my favorite features of Seiko automatics is the Magic Lever winding system. Earlier versions of this winding system involved only three moving parts: the rotor, the Magic Lever and the pawl wheel. Current implementations use one extra wheel for a total of four moving parts. This simplicity of design adds to its robustness while maintaining a high level of functionality. Along with the lack of manual winding, it makes the 7S26 one of the simplest automatics around. The basic functioning of the Magic Lever system can be understood from these diagrams [11,12] from a Seiko Credor catalog. The coupling between the lever and the intermediate wheel functions on the same principle as a locomotive (or a choo-choo as shown in the diagram). The two arms of the Magic Lever [13] then drive the pawl wheel. They alternately pull and push the pawl wheel in the counterclockwise direction as the intermediate wheel rotates in conjunction with the rotor. The intermediate whee! l and pawl lever cannot be removed until the ¾ bridge is removed as the intermediate wheel is held onto the bridge with a semi-circular clip on the underside of the bridge [14].
For the sake of comparison, an ETA 2892 winds the mainspring arbor one rotation with 155 turns of the rotor. The current implementation of the Magic Lever winds the mainspring arbor one rotation for 166 turns of the rotor. Another factor to consider when contemplating automatic system efficiency is the dead angle. The dead angle is the angle of back and forth movements that the rotor can experience without any winding energy being transmitted to the barrel. The dead angle of the Magic Lever is slightly larger than in the 2892 (by five degrees or so) although I haven't precisely calculated either. There are many other subtle factors that effect the efficiency of an automatic system but I feel safe in assuming that Seiko's system is slightly less efficient than ETA's (at least the 2892, which differs from the 2824 and 7750). ETA's automatic systems are remarkably more complex and expensive to manufacture though and I've yet to hear of a Seiko automatic that does not w! ind sufficiently in use. It is not at all uncommon to find some wear around the lever arms and intermediate wheel coupling in older versions of the Magic Lever system. This example showed some wear [15] underneath the pawl wheel. This amount of wear is fairly significant for a watch that is less than two years old. On the whole, the automatic system is a triumph of simplicity that comes with some apparent sacrifices to longevity as well as efficiency.
The Power Train
Upon removing the ¾ bridge, we can get at the barrel, the power train and the oddly placed keyless works
The first wheel in the quickset mechanism [9] is permanently attached to the underside of the calendar plate. It's only after removing this thin plate that the date ring can be removed and, subsequently, the spacer ring. Such close integration of the spacer ring with the rest of the movement is unique in my experience and sharply contrasts with the usual method of securing the spacer ring to the case. This novel arrangement conceivably contributes to the shock resistance by separating the movement and ring, as one unit, from the case.
After removing the calendar plate we can also observe the oddly shaped teeth of the clutch and quickset pinion [10], all the more visible because of the utter lack of keyless works on the bottom plate. Because there is no winding pinion (no manual winding capability), in its place is a quickset pinion. The square teeth of this pinion mesh with identical teeth on the clutch when the stem is in the second position and allow the quickset pinion to turn in either direction: clockwise to advance the date and counterclockwise to advance the day indicator. The second quickset intermediate wheel (the white plastic wheel with traditional teeth) then slides into engagement with either the date ring or the third intermediate wheel (with the wolf teeth) which advances the day disk. This is a very functional and robust quickset and calendar mechanism and, being largely made of plastic components, requires no lubrication. Another thin plate holds the intermediate calendar wheel, c! alendar advance wheel and hour wheel in place and after removing them we can contemplate the top plate of the movement.
The Automatic System
One of my favorite features of Seiko automatics is the Magic Lever winding system. Earlier versions of this winding system involved only three moving parts: the rotor, the Magic Lever and the pawl wheel. Current implementations use one extra wheel for a total of four moving parts. This simplicity of design adds to its robustness while maintaining a high level of functionality. Along with the lack of manual winding, it makes the 7S26 one of the simplest automatics around. The basic functioning of the Magic Lever system can be understood from these diagrams [11,12] from a Seiko Credor catalog. The coupling between the lever and the intermediate wheel functions on the same principle as a locomotive (or a choo-choo as shown in the diagram). The two arms of the Magic Lever [13] then drive the pawl wheel. They alternately pull and push the pawl wheel in the counterclockwise direction as the intermediate wheel rotates in conjunction with the rotor. The intermediate whee! l and pawl lever cannot be removed until the ¾ bridge is removed as the intermediate wheel is held onto the bridge with a semi-circular clip on the underside of the bridge [14].
For the sake of comparison, an ETA 2892 winds the mainspring arbor one rotation with 155 turns of the rotor. The current implementation of the Magic Lever winds the mainspring arbor one rotation for 166 turns of the rotor. Another factor to consider when contemplating automatic system efficiency is the dead angle. The dead angle is the angle of back and forth movements that the rotor can experience without any winding energy being transmitted to the barrel. The dead angle of the Magic Lever is slightly larger than in the 2892 (by five degrees or so) although I haven't precisely calculated either. There are many other subtle factors that effect the efficiency of an automatic system but I feel safe in assuming that Seiko's system is slightly less efficient than ETA's (at least the 2892, which differs from the 2824 and 7750). ETA's automatic systems are remarkably more complex and expensive to manufacture though and I've yet to hear of a Seiko automatic that does not w! ind sufficiently in use. It is not at all uncommon to find some wear around the lever arms and intermediate wheel coupling in older versions of the Magic Lever system. This example showed some wear [15] underneath the pawl wheel. This amount of wear is fairly significant for a watch that is less than two years old. On the whole, the automatic system is a triumph of simplicity that comes with some apparent sacrifices to longevity as well as efficiency.
The Power Train
Upon removing the ¾ bridge, we can get at the barrel, the power train and the oddly placed keyless works
. It is quite rare to see keyless works on the bridge side of the movement and is facilitated in this case by the absence of manual winding capability. By placing the clutch lever, set lever and detent where the crown wheel would usually be, the space on the dial side can be used for the quickset mechanism alone. This allows all of these components to be quite a bit beefier than they would be otherwise. The increased size of these levers and wheels adds to their robustness as well as their ease of manufacture, owing to the looser tolerances required. The set lever has a three-position detent and pivots on a post, rather than a screw. It's tail end serves as a push-button to release the stem from the movement and can only be operated when the stem is in the neutral (1st) position. Most keyless arrangements have one position in which it is most convenient to! replace the stem, it is nice that the 7S26 dictates this by only allowing the stem to be removed in one position. The set lever acts as its own return spring by way of its extended tail. This does away with the need for a wire spring, none of which are found in the 7S26.
The click [16] on the 7S26 is also remarkably simple. It consists of a long steel spring held in place by sheer geometry, without the use of screws. It lies under the click wheel and is held in place by a brass pin on one side, a raised portion of the mainplate on the other and the ¾ plate bridge on top. The barrel [17] is circular grained on the top and bottom and is replaceable as a whole unit. Although it is possible to open the barrel, it is not designed with this in mind. These pictures [18,19] are of a faulty barrel my friend Randall Bensen encountered. Inside we can see the insufficiently applied black graphite-laden grease [18]. He replaced it with a whole new barrel (an appropriate precaution given the permanently sealed nature of these barrels) and proceeded to open up the bad one. After he took the mainspring out and cleaned it, we can see that the inner surfaces of the barrel are unfinished [19]. While this will undeniably effect the consistency of the ! power flow from the mainspring, a host of other refinements throughout the train and escapement would be necessary before evidence of this effect could be noticed.
The power train of the 7S26 is a direct-seconds layout of the simplest configuration
The click [16] on the 7S26 is also remarkably simple. It consists of a long steel spring held in place by sheer geometry, without the use of screws. It lies under the click wheel and is held in place by a brass pin on one side, a raised portion of the mainplate on the other and the ¾ plate bridge on top. The barrel [17] is circular grained on the top and bottom and is replaceable as a whole unit. Although it is possible to open the barrel, it is not designed with this in mind. These pictures [18,19] are of a faulty barrel my friend Randall Bensen encountered. Inside we can see the insufficiently applied black graphite-laden grease [18]. He replaced it with a whole new barrel (an appropriate precaution given the permanently sealed nature of these barrels) and proceeded to open up the bad one. After he took the mainspring out and cleaned it, we can see that the inner surfaces of the barrel are unfinished [19]. While this will undeniably effect the consistency of the ! power flow from the mainspring, a host of other refinements throughout the train and escapement would be necessary before evidence of this effect could be noticed.
The power train of the 7S26 is a direct-seconds layout of the simplest configuration
. Quite remarkable for a low-cost movement such as this, are the Diafix cap jewels on the third wheel and escape wheel [20]. These jewels bring the total number to 21, quite sufficient for an automatic watch, especially with only two jewels in the automatic system (for the intermediate wheel). The power train wheels are crudely finished and appear to be made of nickel. This is the first time I've seen nickel train wheels. Traditionally, train wheels are made of brass because it is relatively strong, cheap, easily machined and wears well in contact with steel. Nickel has these same features while being slightly stronger and more difficult to machine. It's use for train wheels does not seem to be dictated by cost so I can only surmise that its greater strength is desired.
All of the train wheels have properly shaped teeth although their faces are not well polished with the exception of the escape wheel. The center wheel [22] is actually a solid disk, having no spokes or even holes drilled through it (as do some train wheels in earlier movements). While this is not ideal from the standpoint of inertia, the second wheel is the slowest moving of the four train wheels, making its inertia the least critical. Disconcertingly, the lower pivot on the third wheel was completely flooded with oil [21]. There was so much oil present that it had contaminated the teeth of the center wheel [22] and would have resulted in serious wear issues, over time capturing the inevitable micro-metallic dust and turning it into an abrasive paste. Apparently one of Seiko's robots was asleep at the wheel when applying lubrication to this pivot.
The Escapement
The escape wheel teeth [23], while appropriately polished, are not beveled at all, leaving a rather wide face to impulse the pallet jewels. This means more friction and less power. One possible reason for these wide impulse surfaces is to prolong the life of the pallet stones. The wide faces of the escape wheel teeth are less likely to groove the pallet stones even after years of use. Seiko escapements also seem to have an unusually large locking depth (the extent to which the pallet jewels lock the escape wheel teeth). In all likelihood this is a concession to looser tolerances in the manufacturing process and in my experience often results in a lower balance amplitude.
The pallet bridge [24] is nicely shaped and supports a very homely pallet lever [25]. The topside of the pallet appears to have had its insides scooped out and is utterly unfinished. Interestingly, the underside of the pallet fork is fairly well polished, contrasting with the Swiss tendency to finish the top of the pallet fork and not the bottom. At least I can say they weren't trying to hide anything. I can only guess that the weird, semi-hollow form of the pallet fork is an attempt to make the pallet fork lighter, something that is highly desirable in this critical component.
The balance itself [27] has two arms and is of unknown composition. If I had to guess, I'd say it was made of a nickel alloy and the hairspring is made of some form of elinvar. It is not as critical for the balance to be made of a material that is stable over different temperatures as the hairspring, but without a variant of elinvar for the hairspring, it would be impossible for the movement to perform well in daily use. The hairspring is flat and is attached to the collet [28] in a manner that avoids the problems inherent in traditional pinning methods. A pinned hairspring has its elasticity compromised in close proximity to the pinning point as the spring's cross-section curves around the pin. In addition, the hairspring must be bent profoundly from its even, concentric spiral shape to where it enters the collet. Seiko's arrangement does away with both of these problems as the inner coil of the hairspring is crimped in a groove in the collet without disturbing its! shape. The outer coil of the hairspring is similarly crimped in a slot in the stud [29]. Although this is a perfectly functional solution, it negates the possibility of altering the length of the hairspring in the future, resulting in a balance that is effectively disposable.
The regulator uses a buckle [30] (as opposed to simple pins) to keep the hairspring from slipping out when subjected to shocks. Like all of the components of the movement, it is crudely made but well designed and functional. A watch is said to be "in beat" if the tick and the tock are equally distributed around the resting position of the balance and this is controlled by either rotating the hairspring collet on the balance staff or changing the position of the stud. For ease of beat adjustment, the balance cock of the 7S26 features a movable stud carrier that I fault only for being a little too large. Its excessive, unbalanced weight can cause it to shift during shipping or when dropped, resulting in a significant rate change as well as throwing the escapement out of beat. If the escapement goes too far out of beat, its ability to self-start after running down will be hampered in addition to positional performance problems.
All of the train wheels have properly shaped teeth although their faces are not well polished with the exception of the escape wheel. The center wheel [22] is actually a solid disk, having no spokes or even holes drilled through it (as do some train wheels in earlier movements). While this is not ideal from the standpoint of inertia, the second wheel is the slowest moving of the four train wheels, making its inertia the least critical. Disconcertingly, the lower pivot on the third wheel was completely flooded with oil [21]. There was so much oil present that it had contaminated the teeth of the center wheel [22] and would have resulted in serious wear issues, over time capturing the inevitable micro-metallic dust and turning it into an abrasive paste. Apparently one of Seiko's robots was asleep at the wheel when applying lubrication to this pivot.
The Escapement
The escape wheel teeth [23], while appropriately polished, are not beveled at all, leaving a rather wide face to impulse the pallet jewels. This means more friction and less power. One possible reason for these wide impulse surfaces is to prolong the life of the pallet stones. The wide faces of the escape wheel teeth are less likely to groove the pallet stones even after years of use. Seiko escapements also seem to have an unusually large locking depth (the extent to which the pallet jewels lock the escape wheel teeth). In all likelihood this is a concession to looser tolerances in the manufacturing process and in my experience often results in a lower balance amplitude.
The pallet bridge [24] is nicely shaped and supports a very homely pallet lever [25]. The topside of the pallet appears to have had its insides scooped out and is utterly unfinished. Interestingly, the underside of the pallet fork is fairly well polished, contrasting with the Swiss tendency to finish the top of the pallet fork and not the bottom. At least I can say they weren't trying to hide anything. I can only guess that the weird, semi-hollow form of the pallet fork is an attempt to make the pallet fork lighter, something that is highly desirable in this critical component.
The balance itself [27] has two arms and is of unknown composition. If I had to guess, I'd say it was made of a nickel alloy and the hairspring is made of some form of elinvar. It is not as critical for the balance to be made of a material that is stable over different temperatures as the hairspring, but without a variant of elinvar for the hairspring, it would be impossible for the movement to perform well in daily use. The hairspring is flat and is attached to the collet [28] in a manner that avoids the problems inherent in traditional pinning methods. A pinned hairspring has its elasticity compromised in close proximity to the pinning point as the spring's cross-section curves around the pin. In addition, the hairspring must be bent profoundly from its even, concentric spiral shape to where it enters the collet. Seiko's arrangement does away with both of these problems as the inner coil of the hairspring is crimped in a groove in the collet without disturbing its! shape. The outer coil of the hairspring is similarly crimped in a slot in the stud [29]. Although this is a perfectly functional solution, it negates the possibility of altering the length of the hairspring in the future, resulting in a balance that is effectively disposable.
The regulator uses a buckle [30] (as opposed to simple pins) to keep the hairspring from slipping out when subjected to shocks. Like all of the components of the movement, it is crudely made but well designed and functional. A watch is said to be "in beat" if the tick and the tock are equally distributed around the resting position of the balance and this is controlled by either rotating the hairspring collet on the balance staff or changing the position of the stud. For ease of beat adjustment, the balance cock of the 7S26 features a movable stud carrier that I fault only for being a little too large. Its excessive, unbalanced weight can cause it to shift during shipping or when dropped, resulting in a significant rate change as well as throwing the escapement out of beat. If the escapement goes too far out of beat, its ability to self-start after running down will be hampered in addition to positional performance problems.
imported post
. . . Wifey is working on it as we type . . . . she is amazing when it comes to discounting already dicounted items. I quit buying and turned the controls over to her. AND, she has a grip on the war chest . . . sitting here with my eyes, toes and finger crossed!!!!!
I am on these Japan watches big time . . . loving the look and quality of them . . . . .
. . . Wifey is working on it as we type . . . . she is amazing when it comes to discounting already dicounted items. I quit buying and turned the controls over to her. AND, she has a grip on the war chest . . . sitting here with my eyes, toes and finger crossed!!!!!
I am on these Japan watches big time . . . loving the look and quality of them . . . . .
imported post
randyswagon wrote:
Good luck, Randy!
randyswagon wrote:
They are PHENOMENAL values. Crazy what you get for this price. Truly a watch I can expect to hand down to my offspring and if I keep buying watches, that may come pretty soon:lol. . . Wifey is working on it as we type . . . . she is amazing when it comes to discounting already dicounted items. I quit buying and turned the controls over to her. AND, she has a grip on the war chest . . . sitting here with my eyes, toes and finger crossed!!!!!
I am on these Japan watches big time . . . loving the look and quality of them . . . . .
Good luck, Randy!
21 - 33 of 33 Posts
