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Swiss Made SO?

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Posted: Sun Feb 19th, 2012 08:50 pm

bicketybam
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In case anyone was wondering:

Many of our fans wonder what the caliber number means. The “ST” in front of the caliber number stands for “Stuhrling”

My Stuhrling Winchester has an ST-90089. ST-90089 = HZ2189 (Hangzhou Guangzhou)

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Posted: Sun Feb 19th, 2012 08:54 pm

Caddymon
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bicketybam wrote:
Spin what? Why are you so sure it's a Sea-Gull?
SO uses many movements that begin with ST- which are Seagull's. Maybe spin wasn't the right word. Here is a ST-90050 which they use on a Delphi.http://www.shopnbc.com/St_uuml_hrling_Original_Men_s_Automatic_Delphi_Helios_Leather_Strap_Watch/U136440.aspx?storeid=1&cm_re=SearchList-_-N-_-N&prop=Watches|229&prop=Stuhrling%20Original|1931
Here is another ST-90098
http://www.shopnbc.com/St_uuml_hrling_Original_Men_s_Nemo_MCX_Automatic_Mechanical_Leather_Strap_Watch/U136417.aspx?storeid=1&cm_re=SearchList-_-N-_-N&prop=Watches|229&prop=Stuhrling%20Original|1931
Here is another ST-90050
http://www.shopnbc.com/St_uuml_hrling_Original_Men_s_Automatic_Delphi_Achilles_Rubber_Strap_Watch/U136439.aspx?storeid=1&cm_re=SearchList-_-N-_-N&prop=Watches|229&prop=Stuhrling%20Original|1931

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Posted: Sun Feb 19th, 2012 09:05 pm

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Bottom line, Swiss made on the dial, with Chinese movement, ...no matter how you cut it.

Thank god there are many choices out there, because these are something I would not buy.

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Posted: Sun Feb 19th, 2012 09:20 pm

tinknocker
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Like their rules and regs, full of holes

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Posted: Sun Feb 19th, 2012 09:35 pm

bicketybam
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First, I am not a Stuhrling nut swinger. I own one and it's not even an expensive one.

Let's start here:
http://www.tractionink.com/watch_wiki/index.php?title=Stuhrling_Original

All the movements that Sturling uses begin with the prefix "ST". If this is the basis of the several statements of fact that the watch in question uses a unmodified Sea-Gull movement, then this is a huge leap of faith. The debate is not whether Stuhrling uses Chinese or Sea-Gull movements in their other models. It's whether they use a Chinese or Sea-Gull movement in THIS model. I have yet to see ANYTHING posted here that definitely shows it is.

Now I am not saying that they didn't take a Sea-Gull or other Chinese movement and modify it so that it meets the definition of Swiss Made. From Wikipedia:

The 50% Rule for Swiss Made Watches

Use of the Swiss Made label for watches is covered by an ordinance of the Federal Council dated 29 December 1971. The Swiss standard is often pejoratively referred to as the 50% Rule. However, it has its basis in real life economics. Again, the law merely sets forth a minimum standard. The famous or infamous Swiss Made Ordinance has, for a number of years, been subject to many criticisms, particularly inside the industry, because it is considered too lax, but also in legal circles, where the view is that it no longer fully meets the legal mandate specified in the companion law on trademarks (SR 232.11).

“It is not generally known that quite a few Swiss companies have watches assembled in China for export to North America, Asia and even Europe, where the brand name is more important that the “Swiss made” label. Such watches may consist of a Chinese case and a Chinese crystal, a Taiwan-made dial and metal bracelet and Japanese hands. If the movement is to be considered Swiss, 51% of its value must be Swiss and at least the last wheel must be added in Switzerland. Swiss watch brands without the “Swiss made” label are usually equipped with a Japanese movement. The “Swiss parts” label means that the movement is assembled in Asia using kits consisting at least partially of Swiss made components.”

I am sure that Stuhrling has adhered to the requirements set forth above to qualify the watch for having Swiss Made on the dial and Swiss Made on the movement.

Lastly, I do not understand all of the hand wringing. This has been done with watches that cost tens of thousands of dollars: http://forums.watchuseek.com/f72/swiss-embarassment-chinese-watch-industry-wiki-335506.html

FWIW, I emailed Stuhrling and asked about the movement. I will see what kind of reply I get.

Last edited on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 09:38 pm by bicketybam

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Posted: Sun Feb 19th, 2012 09:40 pm

bicketybam
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Even better clarification of Swiss Made:

http://www.tractionink.com/watch_wiki/index.php?title=Swiss_Made

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Posted: Sun Feb 19th, 2012 10:36 pm

bicketybam
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Any of you guys own a Zodiac Oceanaire? Just curious.

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Posted: Sun Feb 19th, 2012 11:42 pm

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I'm enjoying now some of the finest Napa grown wine, (award winning to boot) called by the famed trader simply known as "Joe", as T.B.C, rumor being it costs just 2 dollars a bottle (no way, it's too good!) but still amongst the finest vintages France has to offer...and all the while composing a letter with my genuine gold Mont Blank pen I just purchased at Denios for just $1.99! My new swinese watch says it's now time to pick up my customized Ricky Malle Turbillion watches my cousin said he got from the back of a truck down by the docks last night for just $4.99 (what a steal!)

Now I'm estatic to take supply of crates full of Swiss made Chinese Swiss made Chinese Swiss watches I've heard so much about over the Pai Gow tables (I'll then head straight to eBay asap to make my fortune)
My omens have said a great opportunity has arisen and that I should invest all that I have with Ling, the cousin of the guy who had the last winning Pai Gow hand and who also is a fine vintner, watch official for the PRC, and co-owner of that warehouse by the docs.
I'll need some strong coffee. A double perhaps. For some reason or other he wants to meet at midnight..Alone..so we can presumably concentrate on the fine points of the deal.
Usually I'm not so clear headed about business deals late at night but with the Swiss Made Mont Blank pens by the barrell full, that legendary "Two Dollar Charles" by the crates, and even more pallets of Swiss haute horology, how can I possibly go wrong?

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Posted: Sun Feb 19th, 2012 11:52 pm

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Last edited on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 11:53 pm by bicketybam

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Posted: Mon Feb 20th, 2012 12:01 am

tinknocker
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____________________
There is only one teacher. What is that teacher? Life itself. And of course each one of us is a manifestation of life ; we couldn't be anything else. Now life happens to be both a severe and an endlessly kind teacher. its the only authority that you need to trust.

===========================================

Posted: Mon Feb 20th, 2012 01:47 am

Tattoo Chef
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ED, you are right about the Zodiac Oceanaire......Claro-Semag movement .....modified Chinese movement.

I think what the OP was getting at, was not exactly Stuhrling using it, but rather how with the Swiss rules , they can use it and its okay.

No big deal really. Dont know why anyone would get really upset about it. Just conversation. Some dont care, some do.
At the end of the day, Swiss Made is not same as it used to be.
If they have Swiss Made on the dial, I would imagine it complies with Swiss rules. Thats it.

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Posted: Mon Feb 20th, 2012 02:03 am

bicketybam
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Tattoo Chef wrote: ED, you are right about the Zodiac Oceanaire......Claro-Semag movement .....modified Chinese movement.

I think what the OP was getting at, was not exactly Stuhrling using it, but rather how with the Swiss rules , they can use it and its okay.

No big deal really. Dont know why anyone would get really upset about it. Just conversation. Some dont care, some do.
At the end of the day, Swiss Made is not same as it used to be.
If they have Swiss Made on the dial, I would imagine it complies with Swiss rules. Thats it.
Gotcha. I just didn't understand why some people were so outraged. And we still don't know what movement is actually in the watch (I really hope I get some sort of informative answer to the email I sent to Stuhrling). I actually had asked about this watch on another forum and the general consensus was that it most like was a Claro-Semag 888.

It's at $399 on Amazon right now. If the price comes down, I am going to grab it. I think it is a sharp looking watch and whether it has a Swiss Made movement in it or not doesn't really matter that much to me. I love the blue hands, the silver face, the textured dial as well as the size.

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Posted: Mon Feb 20th, 2012 02:27 am

Caddymon
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bicketybam wrote:
Tattoo Chef wrote: ED, you are right about the Zodiac Oceanaire......Claro-Semag movement .....modified Chinese movement.

I think what the OP was getting at, was not exactly Stuhrling using it, but rather how with the Swiss rules , they can use it and its okay.

No big deal really. Dont know why anyone would get really upset about it. Just conversation. Some dont care, some do.
At the end of the day, Swiss Made is not same as it used to be.
If they have Swiss Made on the dial, I would imagine it complies with Swiss rules. Thats it.
Gotcha. I just didn't understand why some people were so outraged. And we still don't know what movement is actually in the watch (I really hope I get some sort of informative answer to the email I sent to Stuhrling). I actually had asked about this watch on another forum and the general consensus was that it most like was a Claro-Semag 888.

It's at $399 on Amazon right now. If the price comes down, I am going to grab it. I think it is a sharp looking watch and whether it has a Swiss Made movement in it or not doesn't really matter that much to me. I love the blue hands, the silver face, the textured dial as well as the size.
No outrage at all from me. I was just curious what is going on. SO made a big deal about their new Prestige line was going to be Swiss Made and the 3 hand auto appears to be a modified Seagull finished in Switzerland.I came to that conclusion because of the 22jewels which Seagull uses on their 3 hand autos.I have seen another SO Swiss Made and it had an ETA 7750 or so it appeared to be.I find this interesting that a Seagull movement can be made to be Swiss Made when in fact they don't have a factory in Switzerland.As far as the watch its probably well made being finished in Switzerland. If I was however expecting an ETA or even a Sellita I may be disappointed.I know many who won't touch a CL888 for that same reason.

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Posted: Mon Feb 20th, 2012 03:26 am

whattime
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In today's world of marketing there are several instances of of this. The watch in question probably meets the 51% rule and by the letter of the law is properly labeled. .....What I meant in my earlier post is that when some of us purchase a watch, we purchase it for our own reasons and in my own buying experience a good watch can come from anywhere. Now I understand what the OP means when he says he doesn't like the idea of being able to claim something that probably isn't...But according to the Swiss marketing laws it is.
So we as consumers have the responsibility of being more informed about our purchases.
I know nothing about the quality of this Stuhrling watch, its probably pretty good....
But as a consumer just because the dial says Swiss made I am informed enough to know it can't possible be in the same caliber as my Omega or Breitling, so it is my responsibility to check into it and decide for myself. If you buy a watch for 300, it probably is not the same quality as 3000..

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Posted: Mon Feb 20th, 2012 03:34 am

Tattoo Chef
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whattime wrote:
In today's world of marketing there are several instances of of this. The watch in question probably meets the 51% rule and by the letter of the law is properly labeled. .....What I meant in my earlier post is that when some of us purchase a watch, we purchase it for our own reasons and in my own buying experience a good watch can come from anywhere. Now I understand what the OP means when he says he doesn't like the idea of being able to claim something that probably isn't...But according to the Swiss marketing laws it is.
So we as consumers have the responsibility of being more informed about our purchases.
I know nothing about the quality of this Stuhrling watch, its probably pretty good....
But as a consumer just because the dial says Swiss made I am informed enough to know it can't possible be in the same caliber as my Omega or Breitling, so it is my responsibility to check into it and decide for myself. If you buy a watch for 300, it probably is not the same quality as 3000..

Well, yeah, of course a $300 watch is not the same as a $3000 watch, but WE are the informed here on the forums, most people seeing the SO, and Swiss made, is a marketing thing for the most part, just like a German car, etc.

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Posted: Mon Feb 20th, 2012 12:07 pm

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It's $400 which is about $65 less than what you can buy a Tissot Le Locle for on Amazon.

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Posted: Mon Feb 20th, 2012 03:14 pm

whattime
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Tattoo Chef wrote:
whattime wrote:
In today's world of marketing there are several i

... but WE are the informed here on the forums, most people seeing the SO, and Swiss made, is a marketing thing for the most part, just like a German car, etc.

Just so everyone can be informed...Please read last sentence

Statistics:
Public Company
Incorporated: 1984 as Société Suisse de Microelectronique & d'Horlogerie
Employees: 17,729
Sales: SFr 3.05 billion (US$2.03 billion)
Stock Exchanges: Zurich
SICs: 3873 Watches, Clocks, Watchcases & Parts; 5094 Jewelry & Precious Stones; 5944 Jewelry Stores

Company History:
The Swatch Group SA--known as Société Suisse de Microelectronique & d'Horlogerie or SMH until 1998--is the world's leading supplier of watch movements and finished watches, accounting for as much as 25 percent of total world production, while capturing more than ten percent of all watch sales. The Swatch Group is more than its flagship Swatch brand--which alone accounts for half of the company's profits, and, in the late 1990s has given its name to a 15-store chain of retail Swatch Megastores. The Swatch Group also includes many of the world's most prestigious names in watch design, including Omega and Blancpain (luxury); Rado and Longines (high end); Tissot, Certina, Mido, Balmain, Hamilton, and Calvin Klein (mid-market); and FlikFlak, Lanco, and Swatch in the 'basic' or low-end market. In addition, the company's exclusive Endura label crafts custom-designed watches.
In an era of increasing market segmentation, Swatch remains a tightly vertically integrated company, manufacturing not only watches, but their movements and motors and other basic components. The company produces components--through a range of subsidiaries, including ETA, itself Switzerland's largest movements manufacturer--for much of the Swiss watchmaking industry, as well as for the member brands of the Swatch group. In total, Swatch has nearly 450 reporting business units, principally in Switzerland, but implanted throughout the world. Its 50 production centers are located in Switzerland, the United States, France, Italy, Germany, Thailand, Malaysia, China, and the Virgin Islands.

Its 50 production centers are located in Switzerland, the United States, France, Italy, Germany, Thailand, Malaysia, China, and the Virgin Islands.

Even the Swiss aren't completely Swiss made????

Last edited on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 03:17 pm by whattime

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Posted: Mon Feb 20th, 2012 03:58 pm

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@whattime.

Yep. And that is because of the swiss guidlines.
You can pretty much guarentee, that any swiss watch under 2 grand these days, parts of the watch are outsourced to other countries.

It all ends up being how they can configure the parts and still get it to be swiss made by the guidelines they set forth.
Buy for quality, not what is printed on the dial.

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Posted: Mon Feb 20th, 2012 04:18 pm

Caddymon
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Whatime did you find any Seagull factories in Switzerland?

They do start all their movements with ST- http://www.seagullwatch.com/

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Posted: Mon Feb 20th, 2012 05:35 pm

whattime
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Tattoo Chef wrote:
@whattime.

Yep. And that is because of the swiss guidlines.
You can pretty much guarentee, that any swiss watch under 2 grand these days, parts of the watch are outsourced to other countries.

It all ends up being how they can configure the parts and still get it to be swiss made by the guidelines they set forth.
Buy for quality, not what is printed on the dial.

EXACTLY THIS IS WHAT I WAS TRYING TO SAY ALL ALONG...There are to many people that are ready to trash a brand regardless of quality, price, whatever just because it is not Swiss, its sold on TV, etc. or just because there friend says its no good.
IMO this thread started out as a lets trash the brand because they are lying, well they are no more lying then a favorite Swiss brand like say Tissot who has Swiss made on the dial. Who coincidental outsources more then say Omega. Even though they are both Swiss and Swatch, Tissot sells a lower quality (even though a good timepiece) then Omega which is why they can sell at cheaper prices then Omega.

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